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Author Topic: "Hood " article on Chinese herbs  (Read 1967 times)
willy
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« on: July 19, 2004, 12:00:34 AM »

I got this in my mail today.  Because we have been talking about this I thought that I'd post it....... I HOPE that it's OK to do so.....  For me, I've been searching for anything to help, and sifting through posts links etc. for information.  Much of the information that one recieves on Alternatives is anecdotal, which is to say, people just reporting their own experiences.  When I post this..... it IS NOT to support the article...... but to simply make it available to you....we all must make our own decisions about our treatment.  I will also say...... another thing about researching HEP is that one learns to read between the lines.  The article seems to suggest that any benefits one gets from alternatives may be the "placebo effect".  And of course they may be right.  When I got my blood work done in May.... and the DR saw my scores were 25% reduced...... he didn't ask or comment on my reduced scores on my ALT or AST.  He just mentioned that they were still high and that therefore the disease was still probably doing my liver damage.  (We all look at things from different perspectives)  
         I also saw that they ARE doing a comparison between the two treatments for HEP  (Roche vrs Scherring-Plough)....... and that it would be 2-3 years before the results were made public.  I will note that genotypes 2's and 3's are traditionally treated in less than half a year.  Good thing that it wasn't a ten year study...... Grin Grin  I'm sure that there are some people out there that are eagerly awaiting the results.

Ahhh YES!  here's the article:

From Hepatitisneighborhood
     

Docs Find Chinese Herbs Hold Little Value for Hep C
      
by John C. Martin
     Article Date: 07-14-04
     
     
A small study has found that a Chinese herbal therapy used widely in Asia and also used by some people in the U.S. as a treatment for hepatitis C has no therapeutic value.1

One piece of evidence on which the study investigators based their conclusions is that after 3 months on the treatment, none of 45 patients had decreased their levels of the virus.

Embarking on Unexplored Paths
The study was launched to try to put some science behind the safety and efficacy of these herb combinations, said study investigator Jeffrey Albrecht, M.D., an associate professor of Medicine at the University of Minnesota, in a telephone interview. There haven't been many blinded, randomized clinical trials on this topic, particularly in the U.S. and other Western countries, since most of the studies to date have originated in Asia, he said.

And of those, Albrecht said the methods used were of such low quality, the findings can't be reliable.

Another factor is patients' use of herbs as therapy for HCV without the benefit of sage advice. "Obviously, in the United States, there has been an explosion in interest in non-traditional medications like herbal medicines," said Albrecht. As their popularity soars, patients are often able to obtain these herbal remedies without oversight from their doctor, and do so because they value this sort of "autonomy", he explained. "[But], not every patient is trained to assess the data in regard to their efficacy or safety."

Testing Herbal Effectiveness
Patients in the double-blind clinical trial "were randomized to receive a combination of Chinese herbal medications or a matched placebo for 12 weeks," wrote the study team led by Mrudula Jakkula, M.D., in the University of Minnesota's department of Medicine. In all, 10 Chinese herbs were tested.

The researchers' were aiming to evaluate changes in health-related quality of life using specific questionnaires, and liver enzyme levels; specifically, alanine aminotransferase (ALT). This enzyme is used as a marker of liver disease; the higher the level, the more likely the patient is infected.2 The test is not perfect,3 but it is widely used.

The research team also monitored HCV viral levels, and the incidence of any potential side effects. After 12 weeks, the investigators found that the herbal medications "had no effect" on the patients' quality of life, on liver enzyme levels, nor on hepatitis C viral load.

No side effects were observed, as well.

Finding the 'Right' Combination
But Albrecht acknowledged that the herbs may have not have worked because he and his colleagues used the wrong dosage or combination of herbs."The question is whether using a different dose or a different combination of these herbs might work in other patients," he told Priority Healthcare. "Really, we can't say."

Despite the negative findings, Albrecht says the long tradition of herbal use in China and Japan is reason enough to test them further.

He said the herbs used in the current study were likely safe, but other herbal treatments have been associated with liver problems.

"It's an exceedingly complicated area because the composition of a particular herb depends on where it's harvested, the time of year, and all sorts of variables, ," Albrecht pointed out.  "And obviously there are thousands of different herbal remedies out there."

Increasing Popularity of CAM
Herbs fall under the category of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM). According to a new nationwide federal survey, 36 percent of Americans have used some form of CAM in the past.4

But while some scientific evidence exists about the effectiveness of CAM therapies, there are still important questions that remain to be answered, such as whether they are safe, how they work, and whether they work for the diseases for which people use them.5

People turn to alternative medicine, experts say, because conventional therapy—pegylated interferons and the anti-viral drug, ribavirin—isn't effective in all cases. In people infected with HCV genotype 1, for example, the response rate to conventional combination therapy is only about 40%-50%.6

Other patients are not willing to take drugs for treatment because of the side effects or the length of therapy. In other cases, patients turn to alternative therapies to help support their body's fight against the damage that is caused by HCV.5

Herbs and other alternative treatment approaches often used in HCV include milk thistle, licorice root, ginseng, thymus extract, shisandra, and colloidal silver.7

Albrecht hopes future clinical trials on herbals can include collaborative efforts between U.S. and Asian scientists.

'You Can't Argue With Success'
In the meantime, what's the advice for patients?  "Obviously, you can't argue with success," Albrecht said. If a patient taking a safe herbal remedy winds up feeling better, then that is likely one reason to continue taking it, he said, adding that a possible placebo effect could also be to blame.

In addition, there is sufficient evidence showing that milk thistle extract is safe to use, Albrecht said. "Whether it's effective is still an open question. So I'm not sure that patients need to stop if they're not having any harm from them. On the other hand, it's quite possible that it's a waste of money for the patients."

"I don't know that I would make any strong statement either way, except to say, 'buyer beware,'" he said.

1. Jakkula M, Boucher TA, Beyendorff U et al. A randomized trial of Chinese herbal medicines for the treatment of symptomatic hepatitis C. Arch Intern Med 2004 Jun 28;164(12):1341-6.
2. Ribeiro RM, Layden-Almer J, Powers KA et al. Dynamics of alanine aminotransferase during hepatitis C virus treatment. Hepatology 2003 Aug;38(2):509-17.
3. Prati D, Taioli E, Zanella A et al. Updated definitions of healthy ranges for serum alanine aminotransferase levels. Ann Intern Med 2002 Jul 2;137(1):1-10.
4. Barnes P, Powell-Griner E et al. CDC Advance Data Report #343. Complementary and alternative medicine use among adults: United States, 2002. 2004 May 27.
5. National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM). National Institutes of Health (NIH).
6. National Center for HIV, STD and TB Prevention. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).
7. Hepatitis C and Complementary and Alternative medicine: 2003 Update. National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM). National Institutes of Health (NIH).

John Martin is a long-time health journalist and an editor for Priority Healthcare. His credits include coverage of health news for the website of Fox Television's The Health Network, and articles for the New York Post and other consumer and trade publications.
     
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2004, 10:54:55 AM »

Tell it to Dr. Zhang, who will provide you clinical, studies done in hospital settings, case histories, complete  numbers.  But of course it wouldn t be good enough for these "scientists."

And  if it's not done in the US, then the implication is it's no good.  Sez who?   Because they say so?   What trash talk...the rest of the civilized world is forging ahead....

And why are anecdotal experiences somehow less credible than, let s say,  pharmaceutical statistics that have been manipulated  to reflect grossly exaggerated "success" rates.  

By their own admission, these people didn't even know what they're doing,  or why.  Why three months?  What is that all about?   They didn t even know dosage of  what herbs specific for what individual, co factors, change of diet,    etc.  etc.......their  conclusion still  is..".no strong statements either way"    And then they  say Asian studies  (run my people who know herbs,)  are of poor quality?   That is laughable.  

Gee  whiz.....what  science...what earth shattering news....it gets published though...and  posted...

somebody getting paid to produce bad science, and people walk away with the impression that just because it's a "study" it has validity.  

"Beware"  indeed.  


P.S.  Please post my reply to the "Hood."



« Last Edit: July 19, 2004, 11:24:18 AM by Straight__Up » Logged
willy
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2004, 12:14:37 PM »

Thanks Mike.  It does seem to have an anti alternatives bias to it, eh?  One of the other things that I noticed...... Why would they check the viral load, but not the AST and ALT scores?  Short of a biopsy the ALT and AST scores are the best indication of the distress of the liver, and VERY CHEAP to test too.  So why only do the viral load test that costs many times as much as a liver panel?  
         
        It might not be a bad time to say that not all studies are created equal.  I agree with with Straight_up that three months is not enough time to reduce viral load.  It may have been enough time to reduce ALT and AST scores though........ but I guess that we'll never know, at least, not from the study.  I do see that members here have reduced their AST and ALT scores and report feeling better from doing alternatives.  

Willy
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Helen
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2004, 01:41:21 PM »

I read that article this morning too Willy, personally, I go with read between the lines, They really DONT KNOW the Dr. said himself that they may have been giving the wrong dosage, and that they really do need to do more studies on it. So I still think alternative tx. can be very beneficial, they just dont know what the hell they're doing yet.  Wink

Helen
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Straight__Up
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2004, 04:08:50 PM »

 It states at the outset that  a certain Chinese therapy has "no theraputic value,"  a "factual"  statement.

Then it goes on to say, gee, we really don't know   anyway...we may have done this wrong..

The trial was carried out by a doctor at a university medical school...hmm  think there's a bias?  Medical schools recieve a lot of support from pharmeceutical interests..

It says people try herbs without the oversight of their doctor. What  would a doctor know about Chinese herbs, and why would you ask him in the first place?   " Not every patient is trained ...to  evaluate....safety and  efficay."....like a doctor is?  Gimme a break. please....

For the majority of people,  interferon does not work,   and we're supposed to sit on our hands and not try ..cause we re 'wasting" money... thats what my doctor told me....

« Last Edit: February 19, 2005, 07:38:41 PM by Straight__Up » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2004, 06:14:16 PM »

Yea, Mike ,Willy and Helen,
It looks like a bit of a joke to me.....ho hum, wonder who financed it and why they didn't bother to figure out the  correct dosage or combination of herbs."
Thanks for posting it Willy, I don't go the the hood cause I forget who I am or something (LOL it won't let me in)
alley
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OZ
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2004, 09:06:54 PM »

All
The Hepatitis Neighborhood is a service of Priority healthcare.  They basically provide pharmaceutical services.  Here is their quote in the "About Us" section:

"Priority Healthcare Corporation is a leading national provider of specialty pharmacy and distribution services. We provide biopharmaceuticals, medical supplies, and complementary support services tailored to the individual needs of our customers and patients. Our mission is to achieve the highest possible levels of customer service and patient care, while providing growth for our associates and shareholders."

I wouldn't expect the agenda of a pharmacy service to include an endorsement of chinese herbs.  I try to consider the source in all I read on the net.  They are definitely pro conventional treatment there.  
It's just another article to promote their case.
Donna
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2004, 02:16:52 PM »

Hey Straight, ,


You tell them!!!!!  I am spitting mad at the folks on my job. Angry  They have killed my Sunday massage relaxation.  I need to get in a good frame of mind for my visit to Dr. Zhang.  
<chanting, chanting>  

I don't need to read this now!!!   I will post all about my visit when I get back in town.  

<hmm, hmmmm, hmmmmm>  

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willy
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2004, 05:59:49 AM »

Silver:  I hope that this thread didn't bother you.  I see things like this and figure that it is alright to post them.  I'd rather see a study like this be posted and rebutted than to just be "out there".   I think that you could tell from my post that I didn't happen to agree with the findings and many of the members here gave reasons why they felt that the study was somewhat lacking in credibility.  This is not an uncommon occurrence with studies....there is often some area that they are flawed.

         I'm sorry if the timing of the article that I posted coincided with your trip to Zhang.  It was not intended as any commentary that way.  I actually end up feeling more reassurred having read some of the points that members made.  I hope you do too.

Best,
Willy
« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 04:35:24 AM by willy50 » Logged
OZ
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2004, 10:29:23 AM »

Silver
There are all kinds of studies out there.  If studies are found that backs up the position of the site originally posting it, you can be sure to find it there.  In this case, the article was posted at a site sponsored by a specialty pharmacy.  People find information to back their own agenda, and ignore those studies that contradict their agenda.  
It's important to do lots of research, but also to take into consideration the site that is posting the study, if that makes sense.  
And that study is so vague, 45 patients, three months, what herbs did they use, at what dose, how many received placebos (I'm assuming some did as they say it is a double blind study), What genotypes were involved.  how much liver damage did the people in the study have.   I only read it fast because I found it ridiculous but I couldn't find exactly what combination of herbs were used, and at what doses.  Did some of the patients get different doses or different combos?
As straight up said "Beware indeed" ... but beware of the quality of studies such as these and the agenda of the site publishing them.
Donna
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 10:38:27 AM by wheeldm » Logged
willy
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2004, 02:30:13 PM »

Good points Donna: Or you could use a study to "prove" that standard TX has lower cure rates than published.  How?  By playing around with dosages, period of testing, and the group you could skew the results.  It would seem to be scientific but the methodolgy would be flawed and therefore of questionable value.  I would think that one could run another study, being selective of participants (age, amount of liver damage, sex, race, geno and variant) and assert ridgid contols over diet, sleep etc, and "prove" that they are also more effective than published.

        It seems like most people doing alternatives here at this board seem to feel as if they are experiencing some success.  My ALT and AST scores dropped 25%.  Is that all in my mind?  As you get your quarterly or bi annual blood tests I hope you'll post them in " Tests for those on Alternatives".   Anectdotal evidence backed with lab tests is convincing proof.

Best,
Willy
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2004, 06:07:47 AM »

Hey Willy/Donna,

No problem.. besides I was more p.o. at the folks from work;  but now I am   Cool Cool

<doing the Radio City Rockette kicks>  Shocked

Silv
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2004, 10:33:37 AM »

You know I had to make a visit to my Gyno. for perimenopause symptoms, ( sorry guys  Wink ) but anyway
of course he knows about my hcv, but he says he dosent want me to do hrt. because its to hard on the liver, but that if I really needed something we could do
a patch that would be easier for the liver ( you know he explained but I cant tell ya now what he said only that it made sense. Grin ) Anyhoo, when I asked him about doing anything alternative he said, he cant give me any clinical proof, but that he absolutely believes there are all kinds of alternative routes that can be helpful for all kinds of ailments and that until the pharmacutical companies figure they can make a buck off of it, they just dont do many studies, and its a shame, so it just kind of made me feel good about having him as my gyno.
He keeps an open mind.

Take Care, Helen
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2004, 08:56:35 PM »

Helen (sorry guys)
Did he recommend any herbs for your perimenopausal symptoms?  I can't remember exactly what, but I do recall reading about som herbs that contain natural plant estrogen and other hormones.
Donna
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Helen
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2004, 10:17:59 PM »

Donna,
He said he couldnt recommend anything on a clinical basis, because he cant give me any facts, actually though, at this time Im really not having any symptoms,
no hot flashes or anything like that, guess Im just starting, hopefully they will be mild, but I will explore that avenue if need be. ( but I sure hope not  Smiley )
Take care, Helen
« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 10:18:39 PM by Helen » Logged
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